24: "Intimacy" & power (with Shivani Mehta Bhatia)

Oct 23

"We all have it. We all have problems with it. We all want it. And we all also are really terrified of the ways in which we want it."

In this episode, Nicole Cloutier sits down with Shivani Mehta Bhatia, founder of Tulsi Strategies and host of the Intimate Practice podcast to talk about the word "intimacy."

Tune in to learn…

The etymology of "intimacy" and how it relates to both internal and external experiences
Why intimacy is not just about romantic relationships, but a fundamental aspect of human connection and self-understanding
How power dynamics and societal structures influence our capacity for intimacy
The interconnection between intimacy, vulnerability, and imagination in creating social change
Practical ways to develop "relational skills" and foster deeper connections with ourselves and others

Tune in to the latest episode:

Note: Transcripts are AI generated. Please excuse any errors! :)
For everyone listening, I have Shivani Mehta Bhatia with me today, and I feel like it's kind of hard to put you in a super defined box, Shivani. I feel like you've done so many amazing things. I was looking through, like, your sites and your social media and, um, but I do want to mention a few of them before we [00:01:00] get started.
So Shivani is the founder of Tulsi Strategies, which I'm sure we'll hear a bit more about and get into. And you're birth and death worker. And you host your own podcast called Intimate Practice, which everyone should definitely go check out. , is there anything that you want people to know up front?
Besides what I've already said.
Shivani: Um, a great question. , so I essentially do both intimate practice, like the podcast, but really the premise of the work that I do is I like to talk about his relational skills for systemic change. Um, and they'll see strategies like is the, is it an equity and justice studio for people, the intersection.
So I work with people at the intersections of privilege and oppression to kind of understand how do we hold both? Well, how do we learn to see? wielded against us? And how do we, uh, better practice relational skills for systemic change?
Nicole: Yeah, that sounds awesome and so important. And I, uh, I know people who have worked with you on a consulting level and they say great things, so.
Thank you. Thanks, I appreciate [00:02:00] that. Okay, so. Today. We're going to be talking about the word intimacy or intimate. , and I would love to start just by talking about your personal connection with this word. Yeah.
Shivani: It's funny. Cause I. for a long time really hated it because I was like, vulnerability, intimacy, who is she?
Um, I think I, like so many of us kind of went through this, like, I don't need anybody. We don't, we like, are not relational people. , and obviously that's like full trauma response that we all have and we like all avoid in some way, shape or form. Uh, yeah, I, I really, I came to it, uh, more recently as like, oh, I think that's like maybe just the theme behind a lot of the work that I do because, , because so much of the work that I do is really relational and , it, it is intimate in this like very protected kind of way and it's like really soft kind of way And I really love that.
, I think it, I think intimacy or intimate as a word just like means so [00:03:00] many different things, but it's a very tender word to me now. So, , yeah, that's a lot of, a lot of what I try to bring into it.
Nicole: Yeah. I love that. And I, I personally just really, really love when we can come back around to words that we started out having a bad relationship with.
So I, yeah, I can't wait to dig into that a little bit more. And actually, can you recall like an early significant experience with the word? Like what was your First impression of it.
Shivani: Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't actually know what my first impression was. I think that I, probably honestly heard it first as like a euphemism for sex.
, and that was like pre Like, you know, high school, probably, pre the sex talk, and it was, , I trained as a sex educator in college, , and so that was sort of the first time that I became much more familiar with, like, oh, here's all of the words that we use when we're talking about what we actually mean is sex, , and then I also very quickly was like, okay, and, not all of the words.
Sex is intimate and also not all intimacy is sex. And so like disaggregating those [00:04:00] words when they had sort of become an early, , an early blend, I think was like an important thing. I think it's often what we think about is that like intimacy has to have some sort of sexuality piece to it. And I'm very much of the opinion that it is so much broader than that.
And also like the Venn diagram. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Um, and one of the first things I think of too, is using intimates as a noun to describe underwear.
Shivani: Oh, interesting. Oh my gosh. I was thinking about it when you said intimates. I thought of, um, like intimate friendships, like, uh, like a collection, like in the, I feel like that's a Victorian sort of word.
It's like a very literature sort of word, which maybe ages me a lot. , but yeah, yeah. Intimates is like undergarments or is like a close, trusted friends. There's like so many different words for all of those things.
Nicole: Yeah. And I feel like that's like a fifties thing. It's like when they undergarments well undergarments feels pretty tame.
But like they wanted to find like a safe pretty word to market underwear. [00:05:00]
Shivani: Exactly. That's like not quite as risque as lingerie potentially. Yes.
Nicole: I think that's it.
Yeah. Um, okay. Well, let's Talk a bit about the actual definition. And so we're talking kind of about the word intimacy, but like I said, , looking at the word intimate is also important because the first definition for intimacy is the state of being intimate, like helpful things. , but I will read the other definition for intimacy because I think there are two of them.
So it's the state of being intimate and then something of a personal or private nature. So that feels interesting because, like, the way you're describing intimacy and the way I like to see it, I do think of it as relational, right? So that it's something of a personal or private nature. Yeah, that seems a little bit, like, counterintuitive to what we know intimacy to be.
Shivani: Yeah. Yeah, I think about this a lot, actually, because I think there's a little bit of, , both to it that's really important. And, , I, I've been thinking about this definition a lot recently, but, , Mariam [00:06:00] Kaba writes that safety is relational. It's not something that you can have, , and I think that intimacy is a sort of a similar or can be sort of a similar thing where, , there, there's like a relationship to self that I think is important and like, what are the things that are intimate to me?
And what are the things that are like intimate in sharing? And, , so like that personal private nature to me. Yeah. is also about relationship with self. And I am always really curious about the idea of safety as a relationship that we have with others, but also safety is like a relationship that we cultivate within ourselves.
And I actually think that intimacy is like figuring out what is intimate in terms of the private and personal that we don't share versus what is the private and personal that we do share is actually like a really important part of that, like safety is relational. Intimacy can be relational and like relationship with self as well as relationship with others.
Nicole: Yeah. And I guess there's like a closeness implied, right? Like in the relationship part of it, like how, how much of this personal or private nature do I [00:07:00] allow someone to witness or be part of? Yeah. So I do think that private is important, which is funny actually, when you think of it as a relationship with self, cause then it's almost becomes the question like how much of this personal or private.
Do I let the rest of myself see
Shivani: Yeah, which I actually think it's really true. I think there's some really there's like a lot of pieces of ourselves that we run away from and I mean for me a lot of my work is around power and how power modulates intimacy and so and like the flip side of that is around avoidance and where we Like where, what are the parts of self that we avoid and often the parts of self that we avoid are the parts of ourselves that like cause harm or have , like perpetuated harm in some way.
, and so we can't like, you know, work around accountability with that. And a lot of the has to do with power and kind of all these other things. pieces. So I actually think that, yeah, there's like, there's lots of parts of selves that we don't necessarily bear witness to in ourselves. And like, what would it look like if we actually, if we actually did allow ourselves to [00:08:00] like, to bear witness, to kind of understand that part, to, to see it in ourselves and then to see it in other people too.
Nicole: Yeah. Oh, I want to get into the other definitions, but is there anything else about that, like power piece? Can you talk more about that? Can you talk more about
Shivani: that? Yeah, always. Okay. So, so maybe I'll share like another definition, because I think that's helpful, like, since we're, since we're talking about definitions, , the definition of power that I really like to work with and reference comes from Alicia Garza, who is one of the former executive directors of the Black Lives Matter movement, co founders of the Black Lives Matter movement.
, and she wrote a book called, , the purpose of power. , so obviously the whole book has like an extended definition of power, but the part of the definition that I really like to work with is,
, the ability to shape the story of, tell the story and shape the story of who we are. It's like talking about stories of ourselves and others. And then the second part of that definition is to, , to reward, [00:09:00] punish, and to allocate resources.
, and I, I love both of those definitions. I think there's a lot of, like, agency and autonomy in that first part of the definition around storytelling. , I think about, like, authorship and authority as, like, who has authority over our own lives? Where do we give ourselves authorship or other people authorship?
Where do other people take authorship? , or authority, and then that piece around reward, punish, and allocate resources, , to me really starts to get at the more systemic kind of ways in which power is shaped, , who benefits, who is punished, who decides who is rewarded or punished, , how resources are allocated, and, , in what directions they're allocated, , And then, like, of course, when it gets into, like, a group or population sort of thing, it's like, how is that, you know, built upon ideologies of racism or anti Blackness or white supremacy or kind of any of the other isms that we might, might play around with.
So, , so starting with that, like, definition of power, if, Those worlds and those [00:10:00] words really modulate every single interaction that we have with people. I also think that they show up in these really intimate ways and they show up in, , our most intimate relationships. And so one of the things that I'm like really curious about is, , what does it mean for intimate relationship to be modulated by things like misogyny or anti blackness or, , ableism or kind of any of these other isms ideologically that might exist or institutionally that might exist.
, how is that power used or wielded or stewarded well within the context of intimate relationship?
Nicole: Hmm. Yeah. Wow. That feels like a big question. Yeah. Yeah. I can see how like power can destroy intimacy, especially like among community intimacy.
Shivani: Completely. But it's also so necessary, like it's both, I think it, like power, the thing that I really like about what Alicia Garza writes is that power in and of itself is like a kind of a net neutral thing.
It's like how we use it and what we do with it, that is the most important thing. , and she also really differentiates between the, the, Like [00:11:00] between power as a thing you can have and like a feeling of empowerment and how those two things are different. So we can like feel empowered within a relationship or we can feel empowered in our day-to-day lives or like in a relationship with self.
And that can may or may not be related to how much actual institutional, structural, individual interpersonal power we actually have at any given point. And how that also, like even that relationship is. is something that changes, right? That is also modulated by people that are around us. Like if I, if I have more power than you do, or you have more power than I do in certain identities or ways or shapes or form, like that is all kind of capital we could deconstruct.
Yeah. Yeah. And would like really shape our relationship. Yeah. Massively.
Nicole: , all right, let's keep moving on with definitions. So now, um, looking more at intimate. The first definition is marked by a warm friendship, developed through long association.
And I thought that was interesting because it implied that there, there had to be like some time passing in order for intimacy to really exist. Yeah. What do you think [00:12:00] about that?
Shivani: I love that. I really love that like time sort of piece that comes into it. I, yeah, I think, I think it's sort of inherent to like exploring.
Like, it just takes time to explore all these different parts of self or parts of others, and to develop trust or vulnerability or kind of all these other things that come along with intimacy. , it's interesting, interesting to me that the word warm friendship is actually a really interesting piece also to me, like, that it's both this time, , piece, like this, like, a time component, but also, , Like a quality of relationship or a quality of also friendship is like an interesting they're all really interesting words in that but the the warmth pieces is also really interesting to me.
Nicole: Yeah. And I, and I do like the idea. I think, I guess my brain is trying to be like is quick intimacy, like our ultimate goal, but I don't think it has to be, I think it can be like a soft, slow, like intimacy can take time.
, I remember I had like a, an ex, Tell me that I wasn't vulnerable enough. And I was like, hold on, like, let me [00:13:00] take my time. Give me a minute.
Shivani: Yeah, that is a thing to hear. Yeah. I mean, I, I, uh, I'm curious about that too, because I think, , There's a part of the long time that makes a lot of sense to me in like, especially in that kind of vulnerability sort of places.
There's so much choice in that too, of like, how, how deep do we go with people at any given time? Like, that has to be up to choice. And, , I do think there's a piece of like, once you go there, you can't come back. Like, once you share something, you can't, like, un share it, really. And, I also think that we can have a lot of, like, grace with each other of like, Maybe it will take me less time than it takes you or maybe it takes you more less time than it takes me to like get intimate or we have different like felt experiences within the context of a relationship too, right?
There's like the, your experience and my experience and then whatever is like kind of co created between us. I also think there's this kind of other side or flip side that is, there are times that it is much more comfortable to, you know, be [00:14:00] intimate or share an intimate thing with strangers than it is with like very close relationships.
And I'm also really curious about that of like, , this is a throwback kind of thing, but I did, there was an era of my life that I did stand up poetry. Love that. Can I find videos? I really hope not. I think they've been scrubbed and I really hope they've been scrubbed. Um, because that was like a good 15 years ago now.
Um, , but yeah, in that, In that moment, like, I think a big piece of, I'm also thinking about this because I just took a, , a nibbling of mine to see some spoken word poetry, and they absolutely loved it, and it was a really fun sort of thing to share because that is also a space of intimacy, and there's a space of vulnerability with that that is performative, and it is a performance, like, performative in this neutral sort of word, like, it literally is a performance.
And there's also like a really deep intimacy that's, or like a deeply intimate thing that's shared as part of that. So I'm, I, I love that there's a long [00:15:00] association, but I also don't think it necessarily has to be that long association. I'm curious about that too.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's the second definition of intimate is suggesting informal warmth or privacy, which to me is like a shorter term, right?
Informal warmth. As opposed to developed through long association, it's informal. And the example they give is intimate clubs. I'm not sure if they mean like a sex. Yeah.
Also, like, I've been watching Bridgerton. I don't know if you watch it, but there's like the gentleman's club. It's not like a sex thing, but it's about like just sitting and drinking.
Shivani: Yeah, that would, that would count as an intimate club, I think.
Nicole: Yeah,
Shivani: I would call it that.
Nicole: But yeah, I think that implies like a shorter time. And then it's not until we get to the third definition that it says engaged in, involving, or marked by sex or sexual relations. So even though that's like one of the first ones that we both seem to have of like an early memory of the word intimate, it's it's [00:16:00] further down the list, which is cool.
Shivani: I think there's a cultural story around intimate as like being the same thing as sex that is not. Not really true. And I also think it's like, it's a euphemism that's like taught to younger people kind of the earlier days of like, we just don't feel comfortable talking about the real thing. So let's talk around it.
And I, that's my, that would be my guess as to where the association comes from.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's like 10 things I hate about you. She's like, right. Exact sex book. And she's like the quivering member.
And then we get further down in definitions, we start seeing it as an adjective. So it's like, which I think is really fun to talk about because we can now qualify something, right? Like this is an, an intimate secret, or if someone has an intimate knowledge of something, it's a very close thing. Like knowledge of something, a deep knowledge.
Nicole: So, and one of the definitions it has here is belonging to or characterizing one's deepest nature.
Shivani: Oh, I love that. Oh my [00:17:00] gosh.
Nicole: Intimate knowledge is not, um, it wasn't one of the definite like thoughts that sprung to my mind when we first started thinking about this word, but I, I like that use intimate knowledge.
Yeah. Like we are developing right now an intimate knowledge of the word intimate.
It also brings me back to the idea of time. Like I feel like developing intimate knowledge. Sometimes like often more often than not requires like a depth and breadth of time.
Shivani: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I also I was thinking about like intimate knowledge and the one's deepest nature is like I think of that as kind of like the core of the thing that it like takes.
time to get to the core of the thing but also it takes like a kind of deeper understanding of it to understand the core of a thing like you can kind of get the trappings of it or you can get the the superficial version or you can you know explain it to me like I'm five whatever like those the those sorts of brushing the surface [00:18:00] understandings of a thing and it takes I think , both time and also, like, a lot of different ways of knowing something to get to the core of whatever that thing is.
And so, yeah, I'm curious about, like, those two things together as both this really deep knowledge of a person's deepest nature, well, like, one's own deepest nature, but also, like, a thing's, or concept, or an idea, or, like, a, an actual tangible thing's deepest nature.
Nicole: Yeah. I love that you use the word core because that is like the visual that appears in my mind as we're talking about intimacy is this kind of like concentric circles visual of like how intimate you will get like when we talked like earlier just a few moments ago right we talked about how close you let someone get to like the private personal nature and that seems to be the core right like the center of a tree
Shivani: yeah Of uh, like Heartwood, right?
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, lovely. , now I know what image I will put alongside the blog post of this episode. I love it. So one of my favorite [00:19:00] things to do is to look There's this online dictionary called Miriam's 1828, , definitions, and I love looking at the definitions of words in here because it reflects, , how our perception of words have changed in a hundred years, for one, and also like the 1828 definitions tend to be like Super poetic.
And I like reading them. , but some of them are kind of similar, right? So the first definition of intimate in 1828 is inmost, inward, internal, as intimate impulse.
Shivani: Hmm. Oh, I'm, I'm really curious about impulse used as the example there. That is not the word that I thought you were going to say. I know.
Nicole: I'm actually, to be honest, I'm not sure what to make of it.
Shivani: Yeah. What is an intimate impulse?
Nicole: Like the, the pull to be intimate, like the desire
Shivani: to be intimate. Oh, interesting. Intimate and impulse. Yeah. It reminds me of that moment when You're like about to share something and [00:20:00] you're not totally sure if you should and you're like, I think I'm just going to go for it.
And then you say it. I'm like, that's the, the, like moment that sort of came to me with that, which is not, I don't think that's what they're referring to, but that's the thing I associated that with.
Nicole: I love that. And then you have immediate like vulnerability, hang up.
Shivani: Completely. Yeah.
Nicole: I love that. I think they probably use the word impulse differently than how you and I use it. But I love that so much. Okay. Uh, close friendship, close in friendship or acquaintance, familiar, an intimate friend, an intimate acquaintance. I feel like I've in watching period films heard people say like, he's an intimate acquaintance, which is funny because they're using intimate to mean like almost friend, like intimate acquaintance.
Shivani: Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. It's like, those are not two, those are not the two words that I would put together if I were, like, really thinking about it, but I've definitely, like, heard that in movies [00:21:00] before, and they seem kind of contradictory, where, like, an acquaintance is somebody on the edge of the circle, and then, like, an intimate is somebody, like, closer into the circle, and I wonder if, , if intimate acquaintance comes before or after friend.
I don't know that they would have used friend in the 1820s actually, but I'm, I'm curious if there's like a hierarchy of that, of like where it would fit with our language now.
Nicole: Yeah, they have intimate friend here as well, but so I would imagine it being like acquaintance, intimate acquaintance, friend, intimate friend.
Shivani: Right, exactly. I would do the same thing.
Nicole: Okay, and here's, here's a word I, a phrase I like that it uses. So intimate, , a familiar friend or associate, one to whom the thoughts of another are entrusted without reserve.
Shivani: Oh, I love that. I, I, I like that piece about trust, , or like something being entrusted to, that feels really beautiful as part of this definition.
And like safety is relational and, , the, the way that that develops over time.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And feeling that. [00:22:00] Makes me think of intimate impulse, as you defined it, and like that, that decision to entrust. Completely. Decision to entrust without reserve. And here's one, okay, that I don't quite understand we can talk about.
To hint, to suggest obscurely, indirectly, or not very plainly, to give slight notice of. Oh, the verb version. Intimated. Yeah. I was like, I
Shivani: don't get it. It took me a second also. Yeah. Which I have actually never thought of as related words, , but they absolutely are. And it feels a little bit ridiculous that I've come this far and not really put those two things together.

Nicole: Well, I don't think we really use the intransitive verb or the transitive verb much anymore, the intimate. No, I don't think so. Right? Yeah.
Shivani: Yeah. I've used it in writing occasionally, but I don't think I've ever said it out loud.
Nicole: . Yeah, I, I don't think of the word intimate much at all, but let's look at the, , etymology because I think they have, like, shared etymology.
So, , from late Latin, [00:23:00] intimatis. Which is the past participant of Intu Me, which is to make known, to announce, or to impress also from Latin and Timus, which is in most inner, most deepest. So
Shivani: interesting. , it is really interesting to me that those two, those are two, those seem very polar opposites to like announce something or to impress something, feels like something very external facing, , with like as contrasted with something so innermost.
Intimate secret. Private. That's really interesting.
Nicole: Yeah, and I, I think that that, it kind of shows the duality that I think we've been kind of grappling with the whole conversation, right? Which is this, you know, intimate implies relation, with
varying sizes of groups of people. But also implying , this visual of the core and the deepest. So it's kind of cool to see how those two, [00:24:00] like, roots kind of come together to create the duality that we already feel when we say the word.
Shivani: Yeah, yeah. And that there's, it's, what's interesting to me about it is there is, , like, when you announce or share something, it makes it less private.
It's, it's, it's, it's. And also, it, like, doesn't necessarily reveal the core of the thing, and so there's this, , and, like, also that is the pathway through to intimacy in some ways, is, like, sharing a thing, you cannot have intimacy with another person or the self if you don't announce whatever the thing is, and I don't mean announce in, like, the bullhorn way, I mean in the, like, acknowledging kind of way, .
Yeah, so that's also kind of like they're, they're both really necessary to this definition, too. It's not like it kind of, you know, peeled off in one direction or the other, but it really is the, the both and of it, which I love.
Nicole: Yeah. Oh, that's really exciting to me. Yeah, it does. Like intimacy requires like having, Doorways to the core.
It requires that you, you forge some [00:25:00] paths or put some markers. It's like, follow me here. Even the, the way there is like all roundabout and completely work through all these, uh, these trauma.
Shivani: Yeah, or the idea that like you can't have intimacy with another person deeper than they have been intimate with themselves too.
I think that's like another interesting sort of piece of that of, Like, if, if you're somebody who's kind of done that already or kind of become more intimate with yourself and are expecting that from somebody else, like if they can't, if they have not done that with themselves, they are not going to be able to meet you there.
And that is not like a mismatch kind of, or that's not like something wrong with either person. Like no one is wrong for doing that. And it's like maybe a fundamental mismatch and the expectation of intimacy in that space and intimacy in the, like the core of self sort of way.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. , what do you think about?
I think we've, we've kind of like circled this topic, but I want to ask directly, like the connection between intimacy and vulnerability.
Shivani: [00:26:00] Hmm.
I think the intimacy requires vulnerability. And I think they kind of like require each other. They also sort of feel like a Venn diagram to me in some ways. , Vulnerability is, much more about the, like, I, like, visualize it as, like, the dropping curtain sort of thing, or, like, the, the There's like a shade that sort of feels like it's coming down or like an unpeeling that feels like it's happening, whereas, , intimacy is much softer to me.
It's like a much more shared kind of thing. Vulnerability feels a little bit more exposed. I think it feels a little bit more , like one person can be vulnerable in front of other people or with other people or with somebody else. Or even like vulnerable with self. I do think there's like a vulnerability with self of like, admitting I might need something, or I might need to be resourced in some way or something to that effect.
But there's , the like, the visual feels different, like the sense of those words feels different to me. , yeah, vulnerability reminds me of like, , A curtain kind of coming down or like becoming more sheer and intimacy feels much warmer. Actually, it feels like a much more [00:27:00] tender, warm kind of a word to me.
Nicole: Oh, I know. I love that. I feel like I can picture exactly what you're describing, like vulnerabilities, like standing in front of a room and sharing something and intimacy has more reciprocity. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing you say.
Shivani: That's true. I think that's very true.
Nicole: Yeah,
Shivani: which.
Nicole: As you're saying, it in turn creates more safety, right?
Okay. So I want to ask you, like, why, this feels like a big question, but why do you think this is such an important word for us to be, like, looking at and talking about? Like, why is it, , one of the two words in your podcast name? Why is it, why is it important? Why should we care?
Shivani: , well, I did a whole episode on that, so I'll link to it.
I mean, I was like, I felt like kind of the first, I like had to make it the first episode of the podcast because it is one of the two words in this. Why is it such an important word? I think part of, there's like a million reasons why I think it's so important. One of them is because it feels so [00:28:00] inherent to, like, the human experience, not to be, like, blase about that, but in the sense of, even, even if we're still kind of in the space of being self isolated or even, like, if we go kind of either one of the extremes, super self isolated or, like, overly over giving and full kind of people pleasing community role, right?
If we take either one of those extremes, , either way, there's like a lack of intimacy , and that often comes from a really deep fear of intimacy, right? It usually comes from like this reaction to ways in which we've been really hurt in intimate ways, , that kind of leads us to either one of those extremes.
And so, I think that that means that like the medicine is somewhere in that intimacy. It's somewhere in kind of coming back to it and coming like figuring out how to do it well and like where the repair is kind of in that space. , so I think, I think that's part of it to me is that we like, we all, we all have it.
We all have problems with it. We all like want it. Um, and we all also are like really terrified [00:29:00] of the ways in which we want it. So I think that's, I think that's a really big piece of it. , I think the other, the other part that feels really important is because of this power piece. I think of, like, the, the way that intimacy is really modulated by, by all these different forces, by all these different, like, ways that we have of knowing the world and each other, and I, I don't often see them connected, and I'm, I'm really curious about that.
how fundamentally intertwined they are. Like, I, I really truly believe that like, all these different ideologies of white supremacy, ableism, racism, like all these misogyny, they all shape and, and really like underscore the ways in which we can or can't be intimate with ourselves and with each other.
And I think that like ourselves and each other is this other sort of piece that, , that feels really necessary that like, if we, if we, uh, are not able to confront our need for intimacy. If we're not able to confront, , the ways in which power, we've either been really harmed by power or have done a lot of harm with power.
, we can't, [00:30:00] we can't answer any of those questions and they feel like really necessary questions to answer. They feel like very necessary questions to answer. I had somebody in a writing workshop recently talk about, Some of the, some of these questions as like the record of aliveness, that was the, the phrase that they used.
And I've been thinking about that a lot. Like they feel this, all of these questions feel like trying to figure out this, like record of aliveness or what it means to, , to breathe life into all of those words.
Nicole: Yeah. , do you think there's anything like based on what we've kind of learned today, like with the definition, do you think there's.
Well, two parts. , do you think that people, like, get it? Do they get the definition of intimacy? Do they know what it means? Are we collectively using it? I don't want to say correctly, because that feels like there's judgment, but like, are we using it well when we talk about it? Are we using it, like, truthfully to it?
Shivani: That's a really good question. I I would, I think that we talk about it well when we're [00:31:00] not saying the word. I think we, I think we talk around intimacy a lot. Like I think most of our artwork and poetry and media and like film and like every song ever. Like pick any pop song and there's like some desperation for intimacy in it, right?
Like I think, , I think we talk around it really, really well. , I think. I think there's like a because of our like avoidance and fear and like, not wanting to seem like we care too much. There's the thing of like, if we actually say the word then we're like less cool or we're like, I mean, again, it means we care too much and I also think the reality is that, , People desperately want to be known, , or witnessed and, , and I, I, I don't think that necessarily means with other people.
I think there's like a disconnection from self that can also be a really big part of that. There might be a disconnection from others that might also be a really big part of that, but, , but yeah, I think there's also, there's, it's again, a both and.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. [00:32:00] Yeah, there are some songs that really, I think, screwed up my relationship with intimacy.
The line that popped into my head as you were talking is, I think it's Third Eye Blind. I was, I loved Third Eye Blind when I was in high school. And there's a line that says, I want someone to know me, maybe tell me who I am.
Shivani: Oh, yep. Do you remember that? Is that
Nicole: the name of that show? And I was like, that's what I want!
Like, that speaks to me as a 14 year old. , Yeah. And so that, it makes me like, wonder if this is kind of a bigger thing, if sometimes the way we talk around it Actually gets in the way of us having it because wanting someone to tell me who I am, of course, like that is the contradicting what you're saying is kind of necessary, which is that relationship with self and we can only really be as intimate with people as we are with ourselves.
So if we're waiting for someone else to kind of tell us our deepest, most intimate parts. That it can't really ever happen.
Shivani: Yeah, and I also think that's like a very [00:33:00] reasonable thing for a 14 year old to want. Like, I think that's part of the, like, angst of any flavor of adolescence, whether it, like, actually happens to you during your adolescence or, like, any other sort of thing.
version of trying to figure out who you are after like a rupture or in , in kind of like a new stage of life or once you maybe even once you've like discovered a new thing about yourself like maybe there's there has been an intimacy and then you're like kind of grappling with what does it actually mean to like live into this or have this be part of who I am
I think it's a very reasonable desire and like, wish to be like, I just wish somebody else could give me this answer because it is too much work for me to figure it out myself or I just don't know what it is yet. And , yeah, that also takes time.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I'm being too harsh on 14 year old Nicole.
Um, It's gonna maybe take a lifetime, I think, is what I'm trying to say.
Yeah,
Shivani: I think so too. I think that, I don't think intimacy is a destination. I don't think we, like, arrive there and be like, Great, I, like, figured out all the things about myself or this other person. I think the, like, [00:34:00] again, it's like record of aliveness sort of thing. It's like, it's very emergent. It's always changing.
It's always, there's always something new to be known about it. And, , I also don't know that, like, I'm like, I keep saying the word known, I think, or kind of circling around that, and I don't know if we got to that with like, close knowledge, but I also wonder if there's like, different ways of knowing a thing, right?
Like, it's not just the language for it, it's also like, the color of it, or the shape of it, or the felt sense of it, like, that can also be a kind of knowing or a kind of intimacy that That is maybe sufficient and enough and doesn't have to be like an answer. As somebody who like desperately often wants answers for things, that is totally a thing I'm telling myself.
Nicole: Yeah. I feel like there are lots of things where I have to be like, it's not a destination. Like in my life, like success is not a destination. Like none of these things are. Yeah. Once you make it, you're done.
Shivani: Right. There is no making it. There is no making it. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of the like the ends justify the means thing.
Like there are no [00:35:00] ends. Like it's just, it's all the beans. And so what, what are the means and how are we showing up with that? But yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, as we get closer to the end of our conversation, which has flown by, I would love to hear more about like the role of intimacy in your work and how you use it, what practical tips you might have.
Shivani: . Yeah. That's probably a whole other episode that we could do. And I would love to, , yeah. I think a lot about, , the reason that I, the reason that I called my podcast Intimate Practice is because I think that the flip side of that is really important, that like, the practice part is really important.
I think about intimacy and, , like, Again, not as a destination, which means it's a practice. Like if it's something we're kind of ever evolving, it also means that there's skills attached with it. And if there's skills, that means we can like, get better at it, which is something that I am very motivated by.
Um, so I teach it in terms of like relational skill building. Like, what does it mean to, , to develop safety within self and with others as like an [00:36:00] intentional practice as an intentional co creation, , How do we turn towards the things that are hard? Like, intimacy in and of itself is a thing that's hard.
Like, how do we turn towards that as a desired outcome or a value or, , a trust building sort of piece? , and what does that mean for, , larger systemic change? Like, what does that mean for shaping the systems that be? I think imagination is a really vulnerable thing and a really vulnerable space to occupy.
And in order to actually, , step into any sort of imaginative future, any sort of liberatory future, it requires that imagination vulnerability and then felt safety, which all requires intimacy. And so they're like very interconnected to me. I don't think we can have one without the other., and I'm, I'm really curious as.
Each one of those is like levers for the other things. So, , for my work, I mean, very practically what that means is like I'm teaching workshops on relational skill building. I'm teaching specifically on like conflict as a space [00:37:00] for it. I, I facilitate conflict and like do some conflict mediation also specifically like across power differentials.
Like how do we, , name power differentials at play. I think that's kind of this other piece of like, how do we understand if we, if the thing is like white supremacy or racism or misogyny teaches us to avoid the things that are hard or those ideologies within ourselves that we cannot be intimate with them and we cannot understand them and we cannot unpack them or we can't like figure out what comes in its place.
So, , Yeah, so that's a lot of how it shows up in my work. , and then I think the last way is just, I, , I know it's like so cliche to say this, but I really love community. I think, I think the like concept of community is a really beautiful thing. And I think it's something that we are all often really longing for and not always sure how to shape or find or create.
, and so, yeah, I think that's the last way. Part of what I'm teaching because I'm exploring is, like, how, how do we practice that better in order to then actually build community when the ways that [00:38:00] we, like, keep saying we want to build community to, like, build liberatory practice or liberatory future.
Nicole: I love the way you describe, like, the levers , like, I want to see, like, a Leonardo da Vinci drawing of this machine.
Because I do, I feel like there would be But it feels like, it feels like there are so many ways, like, it's all interconnected, but there are so many ways in. Yeah, I think so. And that's really, that's really cool.
Do you think intimacy is kind of required before all of the other things you mentioned? Like, or is it like a part of it? Like, is it a doorway prior to, or is it just like an underlying energy?
Shivani: That's a really good question. I think both. I mean, I think, I think it's like a, yeah, I think it's a both hand in that like we have to, the thing that I have this like tiny little fear in the back of my head that what people are going to take away from [00:39:00] this is like, you should just be intimate with people and therefore like everything will work themselves out.
And I, I don't, I don't want to say, I'm not saying that at all. I think there is, , a depth of choice and autonomy and authority. And I mean that like in the authorship sense, like self authority and self authorship and like choice that is really absolutely, crucially, fundamentally necessary to any sort of conversation around intimacy is like, I have autonomy over.
how deep I want to go. I have autonomy over how intimate I want to be and around how much safety I want to like, build or kind of work towards. So I think that choicefulness is maybe the door through of like, if that autonomy and choicefulness feels secure and can be protected and secured. As much as possible that might be the doorway through and I am I'm like picturing like intimacy and imagination and vulnerability so like these different gears almost that they're all kind of like wheels turning each other in some ways that like I think we like you can kind of pick any one of them if I'm vulnerable with you it like deepens [00:40:00] our intimacy together if , if I tell you about this like vision of the world that I'm imagining.
, that is a vulnerable practice and. If we are like building towards that together that also requires your vulnerability and trust and like safety and vision and imagination and all of those other kinds of things and like you it also requires you to feel a level of intimacy with me that like you trust me with whatever vision I'm sharing or whatever vision you're sharing like that kind of that has to kind of be built together.
So yeah, I think of, I think the doorway maybe is the choice fullness and the like. Autonomy and sort of sense of self and like groundedness and self, which not to get too circular in this, but like, that would be the intimacy with self that I think is sort of part of part of that doorway in and then the, the shared intimacy is this like other sort of piece.
Nicole: Yeah,
Shivani: I love
Nicole: that. And I want to like. Zoom in up to on the imagination, which I know you've said a few times. I just want to like point that out for people to that does [00:41:00] feel like such an important ingredient to what you're talking about. And also, I think it's interesting to mention that authority, , and authorship.
Have a, have a root that's shared with authentic.
Shivani: Oh, wow. I did not know that. Oh my gosh.
Nicole: Which I think, like, contributes so much to, like, everything you're saying and that intimacy with self. Coming to a core of self and the authentic self.
Shivani: Yeah.
Nicole: And that authority that comes with knowing your authentic self.
Shivani: Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. I don't really, all the answers to everything are basically an etymology. I think that's what we're really coming to. Yeah,
Nicole: essentially. Well, part of the reason I love the, , the study of is, is because I think it slows down our assumption that we know something. Yeah. It like, helps us get deeper into it and
take the time to get intimate with the words we use.
Shivani: Wow, that's beautiful.
Nicole: , oh my gosh. So I need this. I feel like we could talk forever. Like there are so many different parts [00:42:00] of what you said that I'm like, wow, that could each be an hour long conversation. Like, Yeah. In its own. , so if people want to find you, if they want to continue this conversation with you somewhere else on the internet, where can they do that?
Yeah, so many different places.
Shivani: , I would say the best place is Intimate Practice the podcast, which is, you can get wherever you get your podcasts, , it's on hiatus. org. for the summer at the moment, but it will be coming back in the fall. , I also write a newsletter by the same name, , which you can sign up to on my website, which is www.
shivani. co. , and I also this summer put out, , a reading list, which I am really excited about. It has been like kind of a fun thing to chat with people about, , because I think a lot of people are like, where, like, how do I. Where do I go with this? And I like to point people towards, it's called the People's Syllabus.
You can sign up for it on the website. I can give the link to, , and that is like my starting place for absolutely everything, anything. , yeah, the People's Syllabus. That's a, , a reading list for a liberous revolutionary summer, I think is the phrase. Yeah. [00:43:00] So I'll, I'll make sure to share that link too.
Nicole: Awesome.
Shivani: I love a good syllabus. Me too. Me too. I know. I was like, I have like all these different words and I'm like, I just want to dig into absolutely every single one of them. And I actually think there's like, there's like intimacy and practice in that too, which is just, , that like, we're not, you know, in the same way we go to etymology.
This is not something that we know just because we know it, or we know just because we kind of like pulled it out of nowhere. It's like really comes from front, it comes from like a long universe of study, a long ecosystem of study. So.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Through many generations over lots of time. Exactly.
Exactly. Ah, I love that. Well, thank you so much. It's been so delightful to talk with you and everyone, definitely go check out those links. We'll drop them in the show notes. , we'll leave it there. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Nicole.
Thank you so much for listening to It's All Poetry. You have no idea what it means to me to have you here. This podcast is [00:44:00] recorded and produced and edited by yours truly. I've had to learn a lot of tech, y'all. You can find all the resources and links from this episode in the show notes. At Nicole copy.com/ it's all poetry.
The music you hear throughout is by Jack Pierce. And if you enjoyed this episode, there is a bunch of other stuff that you might want to check out from my weekly newsletter with marketing prompts to one-on-one copy coaching for your business to branding guidance, uh, and more things that I'm not even aware of at the time of this recording because I add stuff all the time.
But it's all right there@nicolecopy.com. Thanks again for loving words with me. I'll see you next time.

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Listen to Shivani's podcast, Intimate Practice, wherever you get your podcasts
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Check out "⁠The People's Syllabus⁠," Shivani's curated reading list for a liberatory revolutionary summer
Learn more about Shivani's work in equity and justice at ⁠Tulsi Strategies